Ok, new thought. I think it would be an epic edition to have Lavos appear on the world map much like as seen here:
and be then become a location the player could go to for a boss fight much like King Watinga Revenge.
My thought is that Lavos could rise after the completion of Spazzy_D's Castle of Magus stage, assuming it makes it in, and would be an extra challenging boss fight for players. Lavos would have to be fought in 3 stages, the fist of which would be his head which would rain energy blasts down from the sky and fire blasts from it's mouth and occasionally spawn bits for support. Once the head is defeated, you'd head inside the shell to the core and fight Core part 1, which would attack with various dark magic and lightning attacks. Finally once Core part one falls Core part 2 appears, and like in Chrono Trigger, it have the big Monster looking bit in the middle and the two smaller bits to either side, and it's true weak point would be the bit to the right, although unlike the original, you won't have to worry about disabling defense. I'm not sure yet how Lavos' Core2's attacks can translate to a platforming format. He can certainly fire energy beams at you for starters.
Anyway, that's my idea. AuraLancer, you said you liked coding boss fights, so I'm hoping at least you'll take an interest in this.
Full Version: Day of Lavos!
bumping, sorry about the double post.
You know dude,This is really not a
bad idea.It has Epicness written all over
it.And the players of MKF Are likely to have
played Chrono Trigger at least once in their
lives,Whether by Rom or Legitimately.
But as for fighting him,Make it one stage with
you traversing all those parts you said,
Instead of multiple stages like you suggested.
bad idea.It has Epicness written all over
it.And the players of MKF Are likely to have
played Chrono Trigger at least once in their
lives,Whether by Rom or Legitimately.
But as for fighting him,Make it one stage with
you traversing all those parts you said,
Instead of multiple stages like you suggested.
I meant it to be one stage. When the head falls, you'd go inside the shell, as if going to another room in the same level and Lavos Core 1 & 2 would be fought in the same room. Although I think it'd be cool if we could do the cool time warp effect for the Core 2 battle.
| QUOTE (Nicodemus @ Mar 12 2009, 01:21 AM) |
| You know dude,This is really not a bad idea.It has Epicness written all over it.And the players of MKF Are likely to have played Chrono Trigger at least once in their lives,Whether by Rom or Legitimately. But as for fighting him,Make it one stage with you traversing all those parts you said, Instead of multiple stages like you suggested. |
DAS CHANGE YOUR NAME BACK TO DAS AND WHEN YOU MAKE PERIODS AND OR COMMAS PUT A SPACE AFTER THEM... grammer nazi
But I agree with Das, this idea is cool and simple to do.
Great, I'm glad I have some interest. Now I just need to recruit a coder/level designer to actually build it. I know jack shit (and both jack AND shit left town) about game maker. Plus I'm sure this'd require some custom spriting. And I need dev approval for the Lavos rising out of the world map bit.
I'm bumping this one last time. Again apologies for double posting, but I'm lacking for options. I'm hoping someone with level making/coding experience will take an interest in this idea and agree to build it. Also dev approval is needed for the part that involves the world map. I tried to make some faux concept screenshots, but it fell apart. I've left the offer open in my sig, but no one's taken an interest. I lack the skills necessary to do this myself, that's why I'm appealing to someone who does.
This might not sound very inspiring, but...
From what I've read on Game Maker tutorials, and from what I can gather the first thing here is to make a script that describes roughly what this stage is about (I played Chrono Trigger and boy do I remember Lavos, but still what are your plans).
Then try give this script a bit more specifics, what are the player supposed to do about this, what gameplay factors are important, etc.
Once you have that, then its time to start macking mockups, no need to be that picky (spanshots of the game crudely pasted on scanned drawing would do), just a basic idea of the final product will do.
Once that is done, its time for the map to be generated, sprites to be created and enemies to be coded.
Some aspects I think might be important are:
What exactly do you plan on lavos doing/what shapes does he take?
Do you have to go through the whole canyon to get him or do just start fighting him like in chrono trigger?
Anyway hope this helps, just be a little patient and you may be playing it (its worth it) !
PS This seems like a wicked stage, it can get really nasty (in a fun, I wanna be the guy sort of way)...
From what I've read on Game Maker tutorials, and from what I can gather the first thing here is to make a script that describes roughly what this stage is about (I played Chrono Trigger and boy do I remember Lavos, but still what are your plans).
Then try give this script a bit more specifics, what are the player supposed to do about this, what gameplay factors are important, etc.
Once you have that, then its time to start macking mockups, no need to be that picky (spanshots of the game crudely pasted on scanned drawing would do), just a basic idea of the final product will do.
Once that is done, its time for the map to be generated, sprites to be created and enemies to be coded.
Some aspects I think might be important are:
What exactly do you plan on lavos doing/what shapes does he take?
Do you have to go through the whole canyon to get him or do just start fighting him like in chrono trigger?
Anyway hope this helps, just be a little patient and you may be playing it (its worth it) !
PS This seems like a wicked stage, it can get really nasty (in a fun, I wanna be the guy sort of way)...
first off, I would like to say that the idea of adding lavos sounds pretty damn sweet. That aside though, if anyone was gonna do anything such as lavos, I would want it to be done justice, especially with the fact that there are a lot of rabid chrono trigger fans.
I agree with cacho on the fact of making the script etc. beforeahand and then start making mockups of the stage. although expanding on some of the aspects he mentioned.
there are some of the things I thought of to consider
-lavos has 3 forms when you fight him in CT, the big turtle, the alien thing, then the astronaut thing with the two other bits. does he take all three forms or just one or two?
-CT is a turn based game while MKF is realtime you might wanna take the time and see what his attacks are like in CT and maybe figure out how some may or may not be practical for MKF
-Depending on the form used, lavos might seem very mobile, or immobile. If he's immobile (i.e. giant turtle or possibly the alien form) you might want to consider drawing most of lavos itself as the background and maybe make the head the part you have to hit. If you want to get ambitious with the background maybe figure out how to sprite/animate different parts to give it the feeling of being alive
-keep in mind how lavos might react to the user's attacks, and maybe how to counter them
stage suggestions....
-you mentioned having one stage, depending on the space reserved in the world map it might be more beneficial to divide it into two stages. Subpoints are to follow
-divide the stage into different timezones, and have a "gate" seperating parts of the stage.
-you might want to consider the length of the entire stage. I'm getting the idea that you want this to be like an epic battle, therefore an epic stage as well. Best MKF for me to reference would be the scandanavian campaign stage. While I thought it was an awesome stage, I thought it was too long especially for the average player (but how many people here are average?)
-If you go with traversing through different timezones, order might be important as you can possibly tie in a bit of the MKF storyline too. An example could be present > past > future > prehistoric > dark ages > black omen/day of lavos
-I don't how possible it is to add cimematics but maybe consider some cinematic elements (example being lavos crashing into earth in the prehistoric era). If that can't be accomplished it's always possible to just write it in the hint box and show something in the background to make it look like what is happening
-I wouldn't use more than one location in each time
-The stage might end up being long, so it might be possible to split it into two stages, this way you could also focus on the entire epic lavos fight.
-If you split it into two stages a cool idea might be to add queen zeal and the mammon machine as a sub-boss of the original stage. something fun to fight but not overly difficult
I personally have no experience with game maker. Doesn't mean I can't learn it, but I honestly have too much going on with school etc. to really get deeply involved with this project. anyway, hopefully this will help you maybe get some interest or get a better mock-up than what you had originally. I can't help you there since I have no reputation/credibility here. I'm on break this week so I might download gmp and maybe tinker around with it in my free time. anyway good luck with this.
I agree with cacho on the fact of making the script etc. beforeahand and then start making mockups of the stage. although expanding on some of the aspects he mentioned.
there are some of the things I thought of to consider
-lavos has 3 forms when you fight him in CT, the big turtle, the alien thing, then the astronaut thing with the two other bits. does he take all three forms or just one or two?
-CT is a turn based game while MKF is realtime you might wanna take the time and see what his attacks are like in CT and maybe figure out how some may or may not be practical for MKF
-Depending on the form used, lavos might seem very mobile, or immobile. If he's immobile (i.e. giant turtle or possibly the alien form) you might want to consider drawing most of lavos itself as the background and maybe make the head the part you have to hit. If you want to get ambitious with the background maybe figure out how to sprite/animate different parts to give it the feeling of being alive
-keep in mind how lavos might react to the user's attacks, and maybe how to counter them
stage suggestions....
-you mentioned having one stage, depending on the space reserved in the world map it might be more beneficial to divide it into two stages. Subpoints are to follow
-divide the stage into different timezones, and have a "gate" seperating parts of the stage.
-you might want to consider the length of the entire stage. I'm getting the idea that you want this to be like an epic battle, therefore an epic stage as well. Best MKF for me to reference would be the scandanavian campaign stage. While I thought it was an awesome stage, I thought it was too long especially for the average player (but how many people here are average?)
-If you go with traversing through different timezones, order might be important as you can possibly tie in a bit of the MKF storyline too. An example could be present > past > future > prehistoric > dark ages > black omen/day of lavos
-I don't how possible it is to add cimematics but maybe consider some cinematic elements (example being lavos crashing into earth in the prehistoric era). If that can't be accomplished it's always possible to just write it in the hint box and show something in the background to make it look like what is happening
-I wouldn't use more than one location in each time
-The stage might end up being long, so it might be possible to split it into two stages, this way you could also focus on the entire epic lavos fight.
-If you split it into two stages a cool idea might be to add queen zeal and the mammon machine as a sub-boss of the original stage. something fun to fight but not overly difficult
I personally have no experience with game maker. Doesn't mean I can't learn it, but I honestly have too much going on with school etc. to really get deeply involved with this project. anyway, hopefully this will help you maybe get some interest or get a better mock-up than what you had originally. I can't help you there since I have no reputation/credibility here. I'm on break this week so I might download gmp and maybe tinker around with it in my free time. anyway good luck with this.
The input is appreciated, but I have no experience with Game Maker either. I've taken a look at the program, but it just overwhelmed me. Plus considering the scope of this project, I'd feel better if an experienced person put it together, which is why I'm appealing to the experienced level designers and coders here, but so far no one's taken an interest.
As far as the stage goes, my plan was for it to be a boss stage much like King Watinga's Revenge, in other words short and straight to the boss. I described all this in my first post.
My thoughts for Lavos third form where for his central bit to stand on a platform above the player, and have the two other bits fly around on either side. I suppose other platforms would have to be provided so that it'd be possible to actually hit the the bits.
As far as the stage goes, my plan was for it to be a boss stage much like King Watinga's Revenge, in other words short and straight to the boss. I described all this in my first post.
My thoughts for Lavos third form where for his central bit to stand on a platform above the player, and have the two other bits fly around on either side. I suppose other platforms would have to be provided so that it'd be possible to actually hit the the bits.
I decided to throw together some concept work to sort of visualize. obviously it's all photoshopped.... poorly. the solid colors are supposed to be platforms. I'll break it down as best as I can.... anyway for some reason it's not letting me post images so I'm just gonna throw down links.
intro area
intro area: I apologize for the hugeness of this image. basically you get some powerups and go through the "gate" which is treated like a door
1st stage lavos
1st stage lavos: the body would be part of the background while the head is the only spot you can hit, basically the way to hit him would be to defeat the lavos spawns by making them flip over, picking them up and tossing them up at him. Lavos' attacks could include the fiery rain, a small beam from the mouth directed toward the player, a colossal beam shooting into the dead center, and shooting out more spawns. spawns might possibly be mobile, I was thinking of having them absorb energy based attacks (fireballs, megaman bullets) flip them by jumping on them, then pick em up etc.
2nd stage lavos
2nd stage lavos: for this I was thinking of the platforms representing the wires act mobile, attack by jumping on the bulb in the middle of the head. In order to prevent repetitive jumping the lavos body could turn invulnerable for a few seconds until you hit the ground. also to prevent jumping on the platforms by the head I was thinking also having the wires get electrified during that time. This'd be the same with throwing fireballs. Lavos' attacks could probably be more fierce. such as using fists, eye lasers, fireballs, other magic based attacks. maybe have some "wires" disconnect and reconnect. I don't know how easy that'd be to pull off though.
3rd stage lavos
3rd stage lavos: sort of like the last stage of the game, the bits keep regenerating over time. I was thinking of sort of emulating that where all three platforms where the bits and lavos stands are out of reach by the characters. the two smaller bits come down and you must defeat them. after that lavos comes down. After a while the smaller bits regenerate back up top and lavos will go back up top, then the bits come back down and repeat the same process. Attack wise I was thinking of maybe having these maybe more melee based, at least with lavos. the bits might still be able to shoot but it should give the player the illusion of them working together. Maybe while the bits are fighting lavos is shooting some stuff too.
anyway, obviously the artwork here won't appear in the stage, but if this helps feel free to run with it.
intro area
intro area: I apologize for the hugeness of this image. basically you get some powerups and go through the "gate" which is treated like a door
1st stage lavos
1st stage lavos: the body would be part of the background while the head is the only spot you can hit, basically the way to hit him would be to defeat the lavos spawns by making them flip over, picking them up and tossing them up at him. Lavos' attacks could include the fiery rain, a small beam from the mouth directed toward the player, a colossal beam shooting into the dead center, and shooting out more spawns. spawns might possibly be mobile, I was thinking of having them absorb energy based attacks (fireballs, megaman bullets) flip them by jumping on them, then pick em up etc.
2nd stage lavos
2nd stage lavos: for this I was thinking of the platforms representing the wires act mobile, attack by jumping on the bulb in the middle of the head. In order to prevent repetitive jumping the lavos body could turn invulnerable for a few seconds until you hit the ground. also to prevent jumping on the platforms by the head I was thinking also having the wires get electrified during that time. This'd be the same with throwing fireballs. Lavos' attacks could probably be more fierce. such as using fists, eye lasers, fireballs, other magic based attacks. maybe have some "wires" disconnect and reconnect. I don't know how easy that'd be to pull off though.
3rd stage lavos
3rd stage lavos: sort of like the last stage of the game, the bits keep regenerating over time. I was thinking of sort of emulating that where all three platforms where the bits and lavos stands are out of reach by the characters. the two smaller bits come down and you must defeat them. after that lavos comes down. After a while the smaller bits regenerate back up top and lavos will go back up top, then the bits come back down and repeat the same process. Attack wise I was thinking of maybe having these maybe more melee based, at least with lavos. the bits might still be able to shoot but it should give the player the illusion of them working together. Maybe while the bits are fighting lavos is shooting some stuff too.
anyway, obviously the artwork here won't appear in the stage, but if this helps feel free to run with it.
Looks good, though you might want to consider changing the scale so you can dodge Lavos's attacks (like those Boss fights in Castlevania SON, still some people prefer small rooms so they can see the boss in its entirety).
Anyway those pics look dead on track. I think small lavos can be extracted from it, If you could only disable sprites and take snapshots it would be easier to make a sprite collection (not complete just for mockups, that way we can all sort this puzzle out.
As for the first room it might make more sence if it starts at the end of time where the oldman is, and then go to the other room for a bit of perspective. You'd be walking in the middle of the room and there be teleports that are closer and further than the main character.
I know you want support but as far as I can see it everyone is trying very hard to finish v0.3 so it might take sometime, but it can be put to good use (just hang on)...
Anyway those pics look dead on track. I think small lavos can be extracted from it, If you could only disable sprites and take snapshots it would be easier to make a sprite collection (not complete just for mockups, that way we can all sort this puzzle out.
As for the first room it might make more sence if it starts at the end of time where the oldman is, and then go to the other room for a bit of perspective. You'd be walking in the middle of the room and there be teleports that are closer and further than the main character.
I know you want support but as far as I can see it everyone is trying very hard to finish v0.3 so it might take sometime, but it can be put to good use (just hang on)...
| QUOTE (canadiansaiyan @ Mär 12 2009, 04:56 PM) |
| (and both jack AND shit left town) |
Army of Darkness Ftw?
Well it's not bad, not quite what I was aiming for in some areas, but it's it's good.
Just a few things though. Since my original plan was to have Lavos appear right on the world map, having the intro area be The End of Time wouldn't quite work.
Another thing, for Lavos' Shell (stage 1), I don't think useing Lavos Spawns would be a good idea, however instead we could use the other Lavos parts that Lavos used when immitating previous bosses in CT. Sprite sheet shown here:
http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/chro...gger/sheet/3140
Other than that your ideas for that stage of the battle were good. By firey rain, I assume you mean the Destruction Rains from the Heavens attack the he does. He could probably fire those needles at you too.
My only other concern comes in the third stage. You have to remember that Lavos' true core is the small right most bit. My plan was to make it like in CT, that once the right most bit fell, the battle was won regardless of the status of the other two.
Also I'm sure a few of Lavos' attacks could be converted to platforming format, like the Giant Stone, he could make a giant stone appear that falls and tries to crush the player and then disintegrates. He could also cast lightning bolts and other projectiles.
EDIT:
Just a few things though. Since my original plan was to have Lavos appear right on the world map, having the intro area be The End of Time wouldn't quite work.
Another thing, for Lavos' Shell (stage 1), I don't think useing Lavos Spawns would be a good idea, however instead we could use the other Lavos parts that Lavos used when immitating previous bosses in CT. Sprite sheet shown here:
http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/chro...gger/sheet/3140
Other than that your ideas for that stage of the battle were good. By firey rain, I assume you mean the Destruction Rains from the Heavens attack the he does. He could probably fire those needles at you too.
My only other concern comes in the third stage. You have to remember that Lavos' true core is the small right most bit. My plan was to make it like in CT, that once the right most bit fell, the battle was won regardless of the status of the other two.
Also I'm sure a few of Lavos' attacks could be converted to platforming format, like the Giant Stone, he could make a giant stone appear that falls and tries to crush the player and then disintegrates. He could also cast lightning bolts and other projectiles.
EDIT:
| QUOTE (Raptor Jesus) |
| Army of Darkness Ftw? |
Klatto Veratta Nectoo
There is already a Chrono Trigger level in progress, the Magus story for it was shot down(kinda), there's already a possible superboss planned here(Tanzra), and this causes a story event to happen on the world map, something that doesn't happen anywhere else. Those are the cards stacked against this idea. Take it for what you will.
| QUOTE (AuraLancer @ Mar 30 2009, 10:47 AM) |
| There is already a Chrono Trigger level in progress, the Magus story for it was shot down(kinda), there's already a possible superboss planned here(Tanzra), and this causes a story event to happen on the world map, something that doesn't happen anywhere else. Those are the cards stacked against this idea. Take it for what you will. |
I know about the other CT level, this idea was dependent on it.
Unless I can find someone who'll make this, none of that'll matter anyway.
QUOTE (canadiansaiyan @ Mar 30 2009, 12:01 PM)
| QUOTE (AuraLancer @ Mar 30 2009, 10:47 AM) |
| There is already a Chrono Trigger level in progress, the Magus story for it was shot down(kinda), there's already a possible superboss planned here(Tanzra), and this causes a story event to happen on the world map, something that doesn't happen anywhere else. Those are the cards stacked against this idea. Take it for what you will. |
I know about the other CT level, this idea was dependent on it.
Unless I can find someone who'll make this, none of that'll matter anyway.
I know it is dependent on it, that's the problem. If you look at the thread JS put up about it, Genisi softly rebutts the story. I only know how the stage will play, it may not even get a story. That puts this suggestion in an awkward position.
QUOTE (AuraLancer @ Mar 30 2009, 11:49 AM)
| QUOTE (canadiansaiyan @ Mar 30 2009, 12:01 PM) |
| I know about the other CT level, this idea was dependent on it. Unless I can find someone who'll make this, none of that'll matter anyway. |
I know it is dependent on it, that's the problem. If you look at the thread JS put up about it, Genisi softly rebutts the story. I only know how the stage will play, it may not even get a story. That puts this suggestion in an awkward position.
Oh, well I didn't know about that, but like I said, unless I can find someone willing to build this, it won't matter anyway.
Edit: Besides, the reason for Lavos' arrival can always be changed. Perhaps he arises due to some other plot related event, like perhaps Legion summons him or Kefka maybe, or that Fusionist guy.
does it even have to be plot related? I'll be honest in the fact that I haven't really read about what all has been being put into this story wise. That fact aside, maybe he just crashes into the world somewhere like a meteor sort of like how it is in CT. He isn't summoned or anything, he just crashes into the world like a typical meteor. That fact alone can make his impact major to very minor. Even though he's a huge boss in CT doesn't mean he plays a major role in MKF. While that fact alone may piss off some of the more rabid CT fans if people really wanted to make a stage with lavos they could technically fit that in if they so desired.
that said though if people think lavos can only be major maybe it's better to axe it altogether so the game as a whole is better for it
that said though if people think lavos can only be major maybe it's better to axe it altogether so the game as a whole is better for it
I think summoned out of the Earth sounds about right.
The meteor idea works too, but Lavos being summoned by one of the other villians just feels like the right direction for this idea.
The meteor idea works too, but Lavos being summoned by one of the other villians just feels like the right direction for this idea.
| QUOTE (T-Time2010 @ Mar 30 2009, 06:52 PM) |
| I think summoned out of the Earth sounds about right. The meteor idea works too, but Lavos being summoned by one of the other villians just feels like the right direction for this idea. |
Plus it'd be more epic that way. Giant intergalactic parasite turned into a weapon against the heroes, how is that not epic. Actually I'd imagine the Fusionist would probably be extremely interested in Lavos' other abilities (DNA harvesting).
Regardless I still need someone to agree to do this project.
I kinda hoping AuraLancer would take an interest since he said he loves coding boss fights, but he doesn't seem overly interested.
ever thought about actually asking him?
| QUOTE (nagiwazushi @ Mar 31 2009, 11:13 AM) |
| ever thought about actually asking him? |
Um... well... no.
In truth I would've been satisfied with anyone with the necessary skills showing an interest, but I was almost sure he would.
I was wondering how can this be put together. First things first, about the energy blasts, do yo mean that small proyectiles that will have to be dodged? or is it more like something you need to safeguard on certain parts on the map when you get a hint (kind of like not getting getting cover from rain)?
BTW I found these vids, hope they can work as a reference:
maybe you could point out when they use that attack (don't remmeber played chronno trigger a very long time ago)?
BTW I found these vids, hope they can work as a reference:
maybe you could point out when they use that attack (don't remmeber played chronno trigger a very long time ago)?
most of what these vids contain are of lavos fighting as the other CT bosses, which I don't think would work. on the 2nd vid, 4:02 to the end are when you fight lavos himself. The player obviously has pimped out their party so he doesn't last real long and actually only does 2 attacks total. Both attacks are rain like attacks, so in the actual MKF lavos fight there'd have to be a difference between the two like the destructive rain just damages but there's a lot where the giant whirlwind/spike things actually destroy parts of the platform.
Depending on lavos' orientation compared to the player (i.e. does it look like he's in the background or actually on a platform above you/to the side) you might want a warning such as a giant floating crosshair for a beam attack if people wanted to shoot a beam from his mouth.
If we went with the two different rain ideas, you might wanna think about how they might be implemented. There are two things I see with the destructive rain, first would be the question of whether or not there is cover. 2nd would be the question of the pattern of the rainfall. If there's a set pattern it's too easy to just memorize the pattern and just prepare for it. Same if there are multiple set patterns. Memorize the intro and adjust from there.
What could be interesting is if there was a set amount of "rain" on the stage at any one time, and they fell in different patterns, similar to how the ghosts of pac man work except on a larger scale (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3938/the_pacman_dossier.php?page=7) I will admit though I'm unsure of how it could be pulled off even though I'm sure it is "technically" possible. If it was pulled off I think it would keep the user on their toes without totally creating a situation they can't avoid.
For the whirlwind rain I think it's simple enough to just have 2 or 3 come down at a bit of a faster speed destroying the tiles it hits. If this is possible, I would suggest making this attack rarer than the others since even though it's easy to avoid it could set up pretty dangerous situations.
that's my 2 cents on that matter
Depending on lavos' orientation compared to the player (i.e. does it look like he's in the background or actually on a platform above you/to the side) you might want a warning such as a giant floating crosshair for a beam attack if people wanted to shoot a beam from his mouth.
If we went with the two different rain ideas, you might wanna think about how they might be implemented. There are two things I see with the destructive rain, first would be the question of whether or not there is cover. 2nd would be the question of the pattern of the rainfall. If there's a set pattern it's too easy to just memorize the pattern and just prepare for it. Same if there are multiple set patterns. Memorize the intro and adjust from there.
What could be interesting is if there was a set amount of "rain" on the stage at any one time, and they fell in different patterns, similar to how the ghosts of pac man work except on a larger scale (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3938/the_pacman_dossier.php?page=7) I will admit though I'm unsure of how it could be pulled off even though I'm sure it is "technically" possible. If it was pulled off I think it would keep the user on their toes without totally creating a situation they can't avoid.
For the whirlwind rain I think it's simple enough to just have 2 or 3 come down at a bit of a faster speed destroying the tiles it hits. If this is possible, I would suggest making this attack rarer than the others since even though it's easy to avoid it could set up pretty dangerous situations.
that's my 2 cents on that matter
Studying the video I noticed 3 attacks on the first phase of Lavos: Rain, a giant Claw, and a ground based attack.
Claw:
Lavos attacks the main characters with a thrust from one of its claws.
Proposed aiming pattern:
Keep track of the last 5 attacks and consider:
*did he run?
*did he change direction?
Average them and then consider
*The more he runs, the further away the attack is
*According to the average direction change, if he tends to change direction, put it behind him
Applying that simple algorithm chances are he'll nail the player(ouch). BTW I'm just trying to get the best traits from all the ghosts in the link given by nagiwazushi (its awesome, thanks for sharing)
Indication
In Chrono Trigger the player didn't have to know he was going to be attacked because it didn't affect the gameplay. In this case we'll need to know what he's going to do, just not make it that easy to something about it...
Anyway the beast could warn with a sound (maybe a grunt maybe like the dinosaur at the beggining of vid 2) or maybe some kind of height or position change (like a spider, it would be subtle but that way it would make the player put attention while attending the summoned guests haha).
Rain Attack:
It could be different rain patterns, though I think one might be enough, in which case there would be no need for aiming...
Indication
As for knowing what he is about to do I can think of two things:
*He could blink (probably only his beak), like Mike Tyson in Punch Out (or mistream if you prefer)
*He could make the first sound and then make a brief pause before rain starts pouring.
Notes
The interesting part of this would be a dinamic level that changes as you play that is based on simple logic (again like those ghosts). This can be obtained by conditioning the rain shelter areas, every time the claw attacks, it destroys anything in its path so you can't take too long defeating him because you run out shelter from the fire rain (I mean this is Lavos after all). This would be similar to the "Big Boo" or "Dry Bowser". This could be used instead of rain patterns : )
Ground Attack
This attack should be the counterpart to the rain attack, this time you have to get on top of the platforms to keep safe from harm.
Again since this would be a complete area there is no need for aiming.
Indication
The indication pattern should resemble the fire attack leaving confusion as part of Lavos's strategy. Still the difference between them should be noticeable or it would turn into a very unfair and boring boss...
Difficulty
According to these proposed tactics, some points to consider would be:
* How big is the series of attacks with its legs?
(1 being a single attack)
* Is the leg attack is lethal or not?
(I'd suggest it really shouldn't be, unless they are few and easy to dodge)
* Are the platforms only be destroyed by Lavos or can the character also break them?
(again I think it would be better if they didn't)
* Whether the player can jump to a higher platform or if he has to go around it to get on top
* How much time is given to dodge attacks?
* Lavos's Hp
* Whether you start fighting Lavos or have to get to him, and if there are powerups on the way is interesting (because if you do I think I can help)...
Anyway that's my opinion, what do you guys think?
Oh and nagiwazushi, that AI bit was great!!! Thanks for sharing!!
Claw:
Lavos attacks the main characters with a thrust from one of its claws.
Proposed aiming pattern:
Keep track of the last 5 attacks and consider:
*did he run?
*did he change direction?
Average them and then consider
*The more he runs, the further away the attack is
*According to the average direction change, if he tends to change direction, put it behind him
Applying that simple algorithm chances are he'll nail the player(ouch). BTW I'm just trying to get the best traits from all the ghosts in the link given by nagiwazushi (its awesome, thanks for sharing)
Indication
In Chrono Trigger the player didn't have to know he was going to be attacked because it didn't affect the gameplay. In this case we'll need to know what he's going to do, just not make it that easy to something about it...
Anyway the beast could warn with a sound (maybe a grunt maybe like the dinosaur at the beggining of vid 2) or maybe some kind of height or position change (like a spider, it would be subtle but that way it would make the player put attention while attending the summoned guests haha).
Rain Attack:
It could be different rain patterns, though I think one might be enough, in which case there would be no need for aiming...
Indication
As for knowing what he is about to do I can think of two things:
*He could blink (probably only his beak), like Mike Tyson in Punch Out (or mistream if you prefer)
*He could make the first sound and then make a brief pause before rain starts pouring.
Notes
The interesting part of this would be a dinamic level that changes as you play that is based on simple logic (again like those ghosts). This can be obtained by conditioning the rain shelter areas, every time the claw attacks, it destroys anything in its path so you can't take too long defeating him because you run out shelter from the fire rain (I mean this is Lavos after all). This would be similar to the "Big Boo" or "Dry Bowser". This could be used instead of rain patterns : )
Ground Attack
This attack should be the counterpart to the rain attack, this time you have to get on top of the platforms to keep safe from harm.
Again since this would be a complete area there is no need for aiming.
Indication
The indication pattern should resemble the fire attack leaving confusion as part of Lavos's strategy. Still the difference between them should be noticeable or it would turn into a very unfair and boring boss...
Difficulty
According to these proposed tactics, some points to consider would be:
* How big is the series of attacks with its legs?
(1 being a single attack)
* Is the leg attack is lethal or not?
(I'd suggest it really shouldn't be, unless they are few and easy to dodge)
* Are the platforms only be destroyed by Lavos or can the character also break them?
(again I think it would be better if they didn't)
* Whether the player can jump to a higher platform or if he has to go around it to get on top
* How much time is given to dodge attacks?
* Lavos's Hp
* Whether you start fighting Lavos or have to get to him, and if there are powerups on the way is interesting (because if you do I think I can help)...
Anyway that's my opinion, what do you guys think?
Oh and nagiwazushi, that AI bit was great!!! Thanks for sharing!!
Ok, I don't know what ground attack you're referring to, but my plan was to have him use Destruction Rains from the Heavens, or what you call the Rain Attack, which would be announced by the little text box that pops up saying "Destruction Rains from the Heavens". Naturally there wouldn't be as many blasts in the attack as there were in CT as you need to be able to avoid it. Also I thought Lavos would use that needle attack which launch several needles, preceded by the sound effect, and all the needles would be focused on one spot, fairly easy to avoid except they'd come down fairly fast. Since his Zone of Chaos wouldn't convert to a platforming format very well, I thought he could also shoot flames or energy blasts from his mouth(?).
The mouth or beak or head or whatever, is of course his weak point and the only spot that takes damage. As was proposed, we could use the other Lavos parts that were seen during the other "Attack Modes" as throwable objects, also standard powerup weapons such as fireballs and hammers could do damage, but getting up to him could be tricky as he's situated above the player. Platforms would have to be provided to facilitate this. Actually my original thought was if we could somehow get side views of Lavos' first two forms (head and core1), but that would've involved heavy custom spriting. However that way Lavos could be placed at the far side of the room and battled accordingly.
The mouth or beak or head or whatever, is of course his weak point and the only spot that takes damage. As was proposed, we could use the other Lavos parts that were seen during the other "Attack Modes" as throwable objects, also standard powerup weapons such as fireballs and hammers could do damage, but getting up to him could be tricky as he's situated above the player. Platforms would have to be provided to facilitate this. Actually my original thought was if we could somehow get side views of Lavos' first two forms (head and core1), but that would've involved heavy custom spriting. However that way Lavos could be placed at the far side of the room and battled accordingly.
Ok, a little confusion is good. As soon as we all begin to talk the same language half the stage will be done.
First off, I though you'd fight lavos as a basically 3 stage (phases or forms, not levels) boss fight. So the first thing you should do is defeat lavos and then its outercore core and finally his inner core (3 rooms!!! dang, he'd be even trickier than dracula hahaha).
That so far seems to be pretty much in every ones agenda...
*Maybe there should be some kind of midway point between them to make it easier for some gamers and to make fighting lavos a little trickier (did someone say challenge? Kill lavos in one try, heck yeah!)
Anyway if this is a 3 phase boss fight, id like to zero out on the 1st one. I made a diagram of both arrengements (front and side battle).
So with lavos at the back we'd have...
Destruction Rain of the heavens:
On video at 4:37
Same speed, duration and sprites as chrono trigger, only this time it covers the whole screen. Platforms would protect you from this attack
Needles:
On video at 5:17
Those needles could damage the platforms since the attack is completely vertical. Attack pattern given for the "leg" (sorry they were needles, at 1:22, 2nd vid, haven't played this game in a long long time).
Zone of chaos:
On video at 4:56
I think it could very easily work like those portable holes in cartoons:
It would basicallly start at the "x" coordinate the player is at and widen to include a big part of the screen (it could even be exactly the same as the one used in chrono trigger). So if it hits you, you fall.
Lavos at a side...
Platforms
Could be
*Fixed: Could sustain damage, placed at key points needed to attack lavos.
*Moving: Won't sustain damage, you need to climb to a second platform in order to hit lavos somehow (well not necesary but might be a good touch)
They could even be a mix of those.
Desctruction rain form the Heavens
Would have to be slower so the player can dodge them if platforms don't provide protection (which could also be pretty fun), and probably fewer
Other considerations
actually the rest of the attacks could work the same...
Lavos side view could be one of its offspring, resized, reshaded and basically polished so it wouldn't really have to be that hard to sprite
******************************************************
Other stuff...
You could use lavos's offspring and throw them like in the king watinga level, use the already existing CT enemies (which i don't recommend since they don't form part of the lavos battle) or as you said parts of the previous bosses implementations (I mean the T rex is way different from the fortress, its great just a little bizarre).
In any case we have just got to get into his mouth once he is defeated, lets not make it disappear let's just leave it open that way you'd get swalled by lavos (kind of like getting eaten by a dune worm) I think that'd be awesome!
**********************************************************
Personally I like the lavos at the back for phases 1 & 2 a little bit better because its majestic (and a little faster to do) but I find this other possible incarnation of lavos VERY interesting so ...
What do you think guys?
First off, I though you'd fight lavos as a basically 3 stage (phases or forms, not levels) boss fight. So the first thing you should do is defeat lavos and then its outercore core and finally his inner core (3 rooms!!! dang, he'd be even trickier than dracula hahaha).
That so far seems to be pretty much in every ones agenda...
*Maybe there should be some kind of midway point between them to make it easier for some gamers and to make fighting lavos a little trickier (did someone say challenge? Kill lavos in one try, heck yeah!)
Anyway if this is a 3 phase boss fight, id like to zero out on the 1st one. I made a diagram of both arrengements (front and side battle).
So with lavos at the back we'd have...
Destruction Rain of the heavens:
On video at 4:37
Same speed, duration and sprites as chrono trigger, only this time it covers the whole screen. Platforms would protect you from this attack
Needles:
On video at 5:17
Those needles could damage the platforms since the attack is completely vertical. Attack pattern given for the "leg" (sorry they were needles, at 1:22, 2nd vid, haven't played this game in a long long time).
Zone of chaos:
On video at 4:56
I think it could very easily work like those portable holes in cartoons:
It would basicallly start at the "x" coordinate the player is at and widen to include a big part of the screen (it could even be exactly the same as the one used in chrono trigger). So if it hits you, you fall.
Lavos at a side...
Platforms
Could be
*Fixed: Could sustain damage, placed at key points needed to attack lavos.
*Moving: Won't sustain damage, you need to climb to a second platform in order to hit lavos somehow (well not necesary but might be a good touch)
They could even be a mix of those.
Desctruction rain form the Heavens
Would have to be slower so the player can dodge them if platforms don't provide protection (which could also be pretty fun), and probably fewer
Other considerations
actually the rest of the attacks could work the same...
Lavos side view could be one of its offspring, resized, reshaded and basically polished so it wouldn't really have to be that hard to sprite
******************************************************
Other stuff...
You could use lavos's offspring and throw them like in the king watinga level, use the already existing CT enemies (which i don't recommend since they don't form part of the lavos battle) or as you said parts of the previous bosses implementations (I mean the T rex is way different from the fortress, its great just a little bizarre).
In any case we have just got to get into his mouth once he is defeated, lets not make it disappear let's just leave it open that way you'd get swalled by lavos (kind of like getting eaten by a dune worm) I think that'd be awesome!
**********************************************************
Personally I like the lavos at the back for phases 1 & 2 a little bit better because its majestic (and a little faster to do) but I find this other possible incarnation of lavos VERY interesting so ...
What do you think guys?
checkpoints between lavos forms would be fine. I'm honestly on the fence here because it depends on how hard each form really is. if they're really easy I would say endurance would be a good challenge, but if each form is ungodly hard checkpoints would almost be a must.
lavos spawns and parts both I think would be good to throw at the first form. he spits out random ones and they each behave like a normal enemy each with different methods of attacks (for example, mini lavos spawns can curl up and roll around like the armadillos in the first donkey kong country).
I also like the idea with the first 2 forms more in the back. Cacho didn't have this video on his post when he posted lavos vids but the same guy has the outer and inner core fights as well. I know I made a mock-up of climbing up the cables to hit lavos but I was thinking maybe more of having the arms moving around. either you need to detach the arms somehow and throw them at his face or use the tops of the fists as a platform to get up to his head. here's a list of attacks from the outer core that I got from watching that vid again.
-little small boomerangs shooting from his hands following a spiral pattern as it moves
-nipple lasers (lasers shoot from each nipple and sweep along a small portion of the screen)
-this wasn't an actual attack but, maybe make him try and pound mario with his fist. so if you're under the platform you can get hit. maybe add some spikes at the bottom of it or something so they don't accidently jump up and hit the bottom anyway.
-shoots a couple of spheres from its hands which explode to disable def. could be modified so they just shoot in random areas and make small explosions. would move faster than boomerangs
-another move sort of like the one lavos does with the "portable hole" thing. I honestly would scrap that one if it were up to me for this form at least
-"shadow slay" basically translucent clouds cover the entire field. For use here I would think either have the "clouds" actually block the view of where they are, or make it slow down the player.
-"flame battle" shoots a small beam of fire from its mouth. again, could essentially explode but I wouldn't want two of those at once unless we have plans to make it possible to remove the arms entirely from play.
-"shadow doom blaze" another sweeping laser except from its head. only one as opposed to two nipple lasers.
I watched the final form as well. here's another list of special attacks. I'm not differentiating between the actual core and the bits. just by size
-small bit goes above the player and encases them in some sort of rainbow field. maybe a bit shoots it and it binds the player for a few seconds.
-"grand stone" big bit makes a giant rock and it falls off the screen. maybe make the rock a little smaller but it is actually "thrown" like a fast projectile.
-revives another bit. maybe if you kill a bit this is how they respawn. basically a portal opens and they reappear.
-"invading light" all three bits charge up and each shoot a big beam vertically towards the players. incredibly fast. if this was used it'd only be when all 3 bits are up. it'd also only shoot directly under them
-"evil star" big bit summons a blood red moon and it is shredded and tossed to the right. I honestly can't think of a good way this could be throw in there.
-"Crying heavens hidden blow" big bit summons a lightning bolt which strikes a player. implementing this should be pretty self-explanatory
what might be cool for the final battle, is you have to deal with the big lavos on the bottom and when you defeat him, you gotta pick him up and throw him at one of the bits while the bits are doing those more magic based attacks described above. The thing though, is that you don't know which one is the actual core. so if you hit the wrong one, they both die and the core revives the other 2 bits, and you repeat. however, if you have a power-up (say, the hammer bros suit) and you hit the wrong bit, but avoid the big bit you can still attack the core since the big bit is still alive, or vise versa. although to balance it out, when one of the bits is down the others could enter an "overdrive" more when they're attacking more furious so you just can't stand there and easily pick off the core.
the bits should be on a platform out of jumping range. also to avoid being jumped on maybe give them an electrical field so you can't just stay up there or something.
anyway, that was just a thought I really just wanted to get the list of attacks so we have more to work with.
lavos spawns and parts both I think would be good to throw at the first form. he spits out random ones and they each behave like a normal enemy each with different methods of attacks (for example, mini lavos spawns can curl up and roll around like the armadillos in the first donkey kong country).
I also like the idea with the first 2 forms more in the back. Cacho didn't have this video on his post when he posted lavos vids but the same guy has the outer and inner core fights as well. I know I made a mock-up of climbing up the cables to hit lavos but I was thinking maybe more of having the arms moving around. either you need to detach the arms somehow and throw them at his face or use the tops of the fists as a platform to get up to his head. here's a list of attacks from the outer core that I got from watching that vid again.
-little small boomerangs shooting from his hands following a spiral pattern as it moves
-nipple lasers (lasers shoot from each nipple and sweep along a small portion of the screen)
-this wasn't an actual attack but, maybe make him try and pound mario with his fist. so if you're under the platform you can get hit. maybe add some spikes at the bottom of it or something so they don't accidently jump up and hit the bottom anyway.
-shoots a couple of spheres from its hands which explode to disable def. could be modified so they just shoot in random areas and make small explosions. would move faster than boomerangs
-another move sort of like the one lavos does with the "portable hole" thing. I honestly would scrap that one if it were up to me for this form at least
-"shadow slay" basically translucent clouds cover the entire field. For use here I would think either have the "clouds" actually block the view of where they are, or make it slow down the player.
-"flame battle" shoots a small beam of fire from its mouth. again, could essentially explode but I wouldn't want two of those at once unless we have plans to make it possible to remove the arms entirely from play.
-"shadow doom blaze" another sweeping laser except from its head. only one as opposed to two nipple lasers.
I watched the final form as well. here's another list of special attacks. I'm not differentiating between the actual core and the bits. just by size
-small bit goes above the player and encases them in some sort of rainbow field. maybe a bit shoots it and it binds the player for a few seconds.
-"grand stone" big bit makes a giant rock and it falls off the screen. maybe make the rock a little smaller but it is actually "thrown" like a fast projectile.
-revives another bit. maybe if you kill a bit this is how they respawn. basically a portal opens and they reappear.
-"invading light" all three bits charge up and each shoot a big beam vertically towards the players. incredibly fast. if this was used it'd only be when all 3 bits are up. it'd also only shoot directly under them
-"evil star" big bit summons a blood red moon and it is shredded and tossed to the right. I honestly can't think of a good way this could be throw in there.
-"Crying heavens hidden blow" big bit summons a lightning bolt which strikes a player. implementing this should be pretty self-explanatory
what might be cool for the final battle, is you have to deal with the big lavos on the bottom and when you defeat him, you gotta pick him up and throw him at one of the bits while the bits are doing those more magic based attacks described above. The thing though, is that you don't know which one is the actual core. so if you hit the wrong one, they both die and the core revives the other 2 bits, and you repeat. however, if you have a power-up (say, the hammer bros suit) and you hit the wrong bit, but avoid the big bit you can still attack the core since the big bit is still alive, or vise versa. although to balance it out, when one of the bits is down the others could enter an "overdrive" more when they're attacking more furious so you just can't stand there and easily pick off the core.
the bits should be on a platform out of jumping range. also to avoid being jumped on maybe give them an electrical field so you can't just stay up there or something.
anyway, that was just a thought I really just wanted to get the list of attacks so we have more to work with.
Holy crap, that's a lot to take in. 
Ok, first I really don't think the Lavos spawns would work as throwable enemies mainly because in CT each one was powerful enough to be a mini-boss. This is why I suggested using the other Lavos parts instead.
cacho29, you're proposed layouts for Lavos form 1 look good, although I wonder if we really need a platform over Lavos' head in the back layout.
I really don't think Lavos' Zone of Chaos attack would work in the platforming format. I know you guys have mentioned about the holes, but where would the holes go? Besides, if I recall the Zone of Chaos attack dealt damage and inflicted the confusion status effect on party members provided they didn't have an item equipped to prevent it. I suppose you could have it reverse the player controls for left and right for about 10 seconds.
For Core1 the attacks he could do could include:
- The "nipple lasers", I believe that was called "Doors Open to Destruction" but I'm not sure. Naturally that'd have to be modified a little so it would be possible, if tricky, to avoid.
- The boomerang like things from his hands.
- Flame Battle, that would easily convert to a platforming format.
- I like the fist pounding idea, it wasn't in the original game, but we could throw in a twist.
The others I don't think would work, The "Shadow Doom Blaze" would be impossible to avoid, and the Shadow Slay could also potential be game breaking considering his other attacks.
For Core 2, if you remember, the true Core was always the small bit on the right. Of course it might be possible to throw in a twist for veteran CT players and have it randomly alternate between the two small bits each time you fight him. Of course it wouldn't be too hard to figure out which one is the "true" core because it would have the most HP (ie take the most hits to go down)
The attacks that I think are useable for Core2 are:
- Grand Stone, in MKF he'd just make a big rock appear and try fall on the player but that player can avoid it. After landing the rock would disintegrate.
- Crying Heavens, big lightning bolt strikes at random.
- The big bit could also fire lasers periodically. He did occasionally fire a laser at a party member in CT.
- I suppose also the smaller bit that's not the "true" core could periodically try and ram the player. Again that would be similar to the original game.
I don't think the evil star would work, as like the "Shadow Doom Blaze" there'd be no way to avoid it. The Invading Light could possibly be implemented since the player could avoid it by standing in the right spot.
Incidentally I did ask AuraLancer if he'd build and code this for me, and he said maybe. He's just busy trying to push the Magus' Lair stage story premise through the devs right now. Of course we've never even had a dev comment on this idea.
Ok, first I really don't think the Lavos spawns would work as throwable enemies mainly because in CT each one was powerful enough to be a mini-boss. This is why I suggested using the other Lavos parts instead.
cacho29, you're proposed layouts for Lavos form 1 look good, although I wonder if we really need a platform over Lavos' head in the back layout.
I really don't think Lavos' Zone of Chaos attack would work in the platforming format. I know you guys have mentioned about the holes, but where would the holes go? Besides, if I recall the Zone of Chaos attack dealt damage and inflicted the confusion status effect on party members provided they didn't have an item equipped to prevent it. I suppose you could have it reverse the player controls for left and right for about 10 seconds.
For Core1 the attacks he could do could include:
- The "nipple lasers", I believe that was called "Doors Open to Destruction" but I'm not sure. Naturally that'd have to be modified a little so it would be possible, if tricky, to avoid.
- The boomerang like things from his hands.
- Flame Battle, that would easily convert to a platforming format.
- I like the fist pounding idea, it wasn't in the original game, but we could throw in a twist.
The others I don't think would work, The "Shadow Doom Blaze" would be impossible to avoid, and the Shadow Slay could also potential be game breaking considering his other attacks.
For Core 2, if you remember, the true Core was always the small bit on the right. Of course it might be possible to throw in a twist for veteran CT players and have it randomly alternate between the two small bits each time you fight him. Of course it wouldn't be too hard to figure out which one is the "true" core because it would have the most HP (ie take the most hits to go down)
The attacks that I think are useable for Core2 are:
- Grand Stone, in MKF he'd just make a big rock appear and try fall on the player but that player can avoid it. After landing the rock would disintegrate.
- Crying Heavens, big lightning bolt strikes at random.
- The big bit could also fire lasers periodically. He did occasionally fire a laser at a party member in CT.
- I suppose also the smaller bit that's not the "true" core could periodically try and ram the player. Again that would be similar to the original game.
I don't think the evil star would work, as like the "Shadow Doom Blaze" there'd be no way to avoid it. The Invading Light could possibly be implemented since the player could avoid it by standing in the right spot.
Incidentally I did ask AuraLancer if he'd build and code this for me, and he said maybe. He's just busy trying to push the Magus' Lair stage story premise through the devs right now. Of course we've never even had a dev comment on this idea.
This is definetly one of those idea's that has merit, but only if it's really done right.
In anycase, it doesn't have to be dependant on the story in my Magus' Lair level. If the story ends up having nothing to do with Lavos, I can always just add a secret pathway that would lead to the end of time. That could be what leads to the Lavos fight. It doesn't even have to be in Magus' Lair, a doorway to the end of time can pretty much be anywhere.
I'm still not 100% sure it should be made, but fighting Lavos is a cool idea.
In anycase, it doesn't have to be dependant on the story in my Magus' Lair level. If the story ends up having nothing to do with Lavos, I can always just add a secret pathway that would lead to the end of time. That could be what leads to the Lavos fight. It doesn't even have to be in Magus' Lair, a doorway to the end of time can pretty much be anywhere.
I'm still not 100% sure it should be made, but fighting Lavos is a cool idea.
| QUOTE |
| For Core 2, if you remember, the true Core was always the small bit on the right. Of course it might be possible to throw in a twist for veteran CT players and have it randomly alternate between the two small bits each time you fight him. Of course it wouldn't be too hard to figure out which one is the "true" core because it would have the most HP (ie take the most hits to go down) |
I didn't go into real detail about dealing with the big lavos on the bottom. I probably should've said that he might take 2 or 3 hits or something like that, but it's relatively easy to hit him compared to the others. or you just gotta jump on him and pick him up assuming he doesn't hit you while trying to do so either really works.
for the core and the small bit I was thinking when the core respawns the other bits they all occupy the same space (thus making the two small bits look identical) and then they split off into their respective positions so the player doesn't know which is which (i.e. it doesn't always go to the right.) then of course if you hit the right one the hp would go down and the two smaller bits could converge and split off again while reviving the big bit or something like that.
hopefully that should be a little more clear. For trying to get devs to notice I would say the best bet is to actually get a prototype stage together. Luckly since it's a boss fight all you need to do is get enough art to fill a few screens. The spriter's resource has a lot of things on lavos, but doesn't have any good backgrounds for use in the fight (except maybe the lavos outer core background). If anyone has a CT rom or something it should be easy enough to just take a screenshot and photoshop some of the existing tiles to make it look a bit better. As far as coding is concerned I honestly don't know the code that is used, but for a prototye it might help to ask auralancer or someone for some advice or something so you can take initiative and code on your own.
Honestly the best way to get anyone to notice anything is if you start taking matters into your own hands to get this stage off the ground. I doubt anyone who has taken an interest in this thread has any kind of reputation when it comes to developing for this game, that's probably why people have just glanced at it and moved on.
also more of a side note, I'm trying to do some photoshop side projects because my photoshop skills are terrible, but I'll probably be down for trying to design some art assets to throw into the stage if you want, just let me know what is needed
EDIT: Spazzy I personally have no problem if you wanted to tie magus' stage in with it or not, in my opinion as it relates to MKF as a whole they can be two stand-alone stages in two completely different worlds, or they can work with each other. What I'm saying is don't feel like you have to do something to add this in. If it comes to the point where people want to tie it together we can worry about it then.
@Spazzy_D:Yes I know, I had already stated that the reason for Lavos' arrival is flexible. I'm sure the Fusionist would be very interested in Lavos' DNA harvesting abilities and Kefka would probably see merit in harnessing Lavos' immense power for use against the coalition. I just thought the premise of your Magus' Lair stage made a perfect lead in to fight with Lavos, but if that doesn't work, there are alternatives.
I appreciate the idea of adding a path to the End of Time, but I really thought it'd be epic to have Lavos burst through the world map and rise up Day of Lavos style. Of course, it's doubtful I'll be able to sell that part to the devs though.
@nagiwazushi: I'm not sure having lavos' central core throwable is such a good idea. Of course if it's not, we have to provide something else or have him occasionally drop power ups. I suppose whichever bit's not the "true" core could possibly be throwable. When it tries to ram the player, that's when you can jump on it and pick it up and throw it at one of the other bits. Then like you said, the smaller bit would be revived and the two small bits would come together and split apart so once again you don't know which one is the "true" core until they attack. Of course those who haven't played CT would probably assume the central bit is the true core, until it dies and is revived that is.
I appreciate the idea of adding a path to the End of Time, but I really thought it'd be epic to have Lavos burst through the world map and rise up Day of Lavos style. Of course, it's doubtful I'll be able to sell that part to the devs though.
@nagiwazushi: I'm not sure having lavos' central core throwable is such a good idea. Of course if it's not, we have to provide something else or have him occasionally drop power ups. I suppose whichever bit's not the "true" core could possibly be throwable. When it tries to ram the player, that's when you can jump on it and pick it up and throw it at one of the other bits. Then like you said, the smaller bit would be revived and the two small bits would come together and split apart so once again you don't know which one is the "true" core until they attack. Of course those who haven't played CT would probably assume the central bit is the true core, until it dies and is revived that is.
| QUOTE (canadiansaiyan @ Apr 6 2009, 08:22 AM) |
| Holy crap, that's a lot to take in. |
Wow everything went at 100 miles per hour, so ok...
I've only talked about the first phase of the Lavos battle because I think it might be best to work one at a time. Once we have all the necesary planning, we should post vids and stuff for the outer core as well as sprites and real mockups for this one. So as to leave each one of them settled and ready to code (which by the looks of these posts will be in no time).
So on with it...
**************************************************************
A few questions:
Side or front battle?
And, if its a side battle:
. Use the sprites from the lavos larva as a base to build the lavos sprite?
. And, should there be a moving plaform?
Basically where would lavos be? Definetly not both, and you don't fight the lavos jrs. Throwables are something else entirely...
(my vote is as I said, is lavos should be in the back like in CT)
**************************************************************
Now some ideas...
Difficulty
This is lavos, I think he had quite a bit of respect for a good reason (yep now who didn't try to kill lavos the first time he appeared and found himself fighting for a very very long time until you ran out of items, mp and eventually hp, he was BIG bully haha). So nope, I don't think he should be whimpy at all. That means not losing a life in a battle in all phases would be a future challenge possiblity (yeah, and those AI's from nagiwazushi are the ticket to Lavos big time frag mahem, great find man)
Throwables
I believe they should just be skinned shyguys, that means if they touch you they hit you but you can carry them with enough ease to keep focused on Lavos's attacks. The idea of skinning them as lavos larvae (or babys) is one, but yup there is plenty to choose from. Be specific guys which ones do you like?
Attack announcements
Rather than give a text announcement (in an action game you don't want to read in the middle of a boss fight) I suggest making sounds. For example for the Rain of the Heavens attack I suggest a sound similar to the one you get from letting out gas from a stove for too long before you actually turn it on (or some other fire sound), before the attack itself beggins. That way you percieve it even if you are mostly focused on a part of the screen...
Coding
Don't worry about it guys, what we need is the level's/boss's dinamics then sprites and mockups and finally coding. Once v 0.3 is out, devs will have more time and if they can't spare time I promise to help out coding by then (I'm still trying to learn more GM, but after going through Fortran, C, Matlab and Assembly I'm not that scared of GM). In any case, I really think they'll give us support! First though, we need to have a very definite idea so they can devote all their efforts to program (or more likely debugging, seriously I learned that when doing the beer level not to mention when I learned the other stuff I just said).
And now for something completely different
*************************************************************
Lavos's attacks...
(I'm going informal here but you all know the names)
Needle attack
Ok, so I think this attack could be vertical just like chrono trigger however...
When the needle falls it damages a part of the platform, making it harder to attack lavos and depending on the rain attack provides fewer shelter. This attack could use the AI given before (I have another idea but will post it seperately, first lets decide this part).
Rain attack
Ok 2 choices, pouring rain or fireballs dropping from the sky:
Choice 1, "pouring rain"
The rain doesn't pour, its scattered like in CT but comes down at the same speed as CT's and is too fast to dodge. You need the platforms to have shelter from the rain (yup an umbrella). As I said the diagram is exaggerated just to give an idea of how it would go, and the grey boxes are safe zones (below plattforms).
Choice 2, "Fireballs dropping from the sky"
Basically you need to dodge the fireballs, kind of like certain Dracula fights in Castlevania. They are slow and few so its basically just reflexes rather than strattegy. This would make the fight easier, however in this case I suggest that platforms don't give you cover.
Chaos attack
Also two choices...
Choice 1, "portable hole"
This seems to be the less liked idea, but before we discard it I want tomake sure its understood. this is a very simple idea, the floor vanishes and when you fall you get outside the room or screen so you basically die.
This idea is a way of balancing the fact that you need those platforms to protect you from the rain and so you must put attention to what lavos is doing before you decide what to do (but you better decide quickly).
So in this way you'd go:
Should I try and fool him so he doesn't damage the platform?
Or jump to a platform before the floor is gone?
Or get below a platform and take cover?
All this while you are trying to get a skinned shyguy to thow or just dodging him
Choice 2, "Control reversal"
As for the control reversal idea, a similar effect to fog could fill the screen and reverse controls as you said, but not inflict damage. That would make it very hard but not unfair (and I think fun too). Plus it would be a great visual !
I can imagine it starting as a small circle in the middle of the screen that grows until it covers all of it (as I said this has to be semi transparent so you still see everything) then just vanishes. As for how long well I think it could be as long as in CT (yup back to the reference).
In this case platforms are again not very important, however if they provide shelter from the rain the central platform could be near the top of the screen so as to provide easier access to lavos.
*************************************************************
Ok so basically, for the 1st phase of lavos:
*Is lavos at the back or side?
*Do you prefer to have a visual cue for his attacks or a sound (can you read in a boss fight even when zoning out on a part of the screen, do you want to help people with sound problems)?
*What skin do you want for the shyguy, or do you want a different enemy type alltogether (as a throwable)?
*Do you want to use strategy or reflexes for the rain attack?
*Do you want to make the chaos attack deadly (best with a strategic rain attack) or change the control of the main character?
-If its strategy then the needle attack breaks the platforms
*Do you want save points or is a light hearted lavos more you're stile?
(ok I know I shouldn't impose, but this is my attempt at hummor)
*Should lavos's mouth throw fire (well not mouth but near it)?
My opinion is
*Back
*Sound cue
*Shiguy, lavos larva skin is fine but any from his battle will do
*Both are ok, I choose strategy in case the chaos attack is deadly if not I think we should add the mouth fire throwing attack cause otherwise lavos is a sitting duck (expect for the needles).
*Save points, lavos is supposed to be one really mean guy
*Only if the rain attack is reflex based.
*******************************************
Last thing guys; I think were doing great, lavos is going really fast!
Anyway, I believe this stuff should be settled so we can start spriting him making a small scale playable level (a playable mockup, and that I can certainly do) and focus on the outer core.
As for the inclution in other levels, backsotry and such, I suggest to take it easy. I really like canadiansaiyan's idea about him coming up from the earth but we can tackle that when all else is done. At the speed these things are going it shouldn't be that long anyway
Also as for devs, if we build it they will come...
I don't mind using skinned shyguys in place for a prototype, but if we move beyond that (i.e. this actually gets support to be made into an actual stage) it should either be lavos parts or spawns. Otherwise it just would seem out of place.
I also like the idea of a front battle for the 1st lavos stage. In my opinion side battles are only good for smaller/moveable sprites such as megaman bosses. Those fights tend to be more fast paced action and the 1st and 2nd stages of lavos were never really fast paced. Especially the first since all he does is sit there and spit stuff.
Also, for cacho's diagrams. I think they look pretty good, but are we making it so it is possible to jump on lavos? if so the platforms and his head look pretty low (I do understand that it is a rough diagram). Also I personally would get rid of that top platform. While you do want cover from the rain if we're gonna make it exciting at all I feel the rain should be pretty reflex base with some cover, but not enough that it's over half the map. even if the platforms can get destroyed by needle attacks. If you get rid of the big platform in the middle the others probably could be made a little bigger if you wanted.
As far as attack announcements goes, I doubt there will be a lot of things going on at the time of the rain (minus maybe trying to throw some stuff at lavos). so the text would work. although I personally would maybe animate the background a little to show lavos shooting the rain up and then it pouring down. Or... if people wanted to make it look like lavos was calling it down, maybe he opens his mouth and maybe glows or something to call the rain down. Any of those I think would work honestly.
This is my biggest problem with the portable hole attack. I love the idea of it, but it's looking like you want a hole to open under mario and he falls in. simple enough yea but remember that the hole in CT opens in more of a perspective view than a complete platforming 2-d look. I honestly don't think translating that over would make it look as effective as it did in CT unless...... it maybe teleported some of the platform away temporarily. like a circle encompasses a part of the main platform. and once it disappears that platform is gone. but maybe about 30 seconds later it reappears.
I think that about covers everything I can add for now.
I also like the idea of a front battle for the 1st lavos stage. In my opinion side battles are only good for smaller/moveable sprites such as megaman bosses. Those fights tend to be more fast paced action and the 1st and 2nd stages of lavos were never really fast paced. Especially the first since all he does is sit there and spit stuff.
Also, for cacho's diagrams. I think they look pretty good, but are we making it so it is possible to jump on lavos? if so the platforms and his head look pretty low (I do understand that it is a rough diagram). Also I personally would get rid of that top platform. While you do want cover from the rain if we're gonna make it exciting at all I feel the rain should be pretty reflex base with some cover, but not enough that it's over half the map. even if the platforms can get destroyed by needle attacks. If you get rid of the big platform in the middle the others probably could be made a little bigger if you wanted.
As far as attack announcements goes, I doubt there will be a lot of things going on at the time of the rain (minus maybe trying to throw some stuff at lavos). so the text would work. although I personally would maybe animate the background a little to show lavos shooting the rain up and then it pouring down. Or... if people wanted to make it look like lavos was calling it down, maybe he opens his mouth and maybe glows or something to call the rain down. Any of those I think would work honestly.
This is my biggest problem with the portable hole attack. I love the idea of it, but it's looking like you want a hole to open under mario and he falls in. simple enough yea but remember that the hole in CT opens in more of a perspective view than a complete platforming 2-d look. I honestly don't think translating that over would make it look as effective as it did in CT unless...... it maybe teleported some of the platform away temporarily. like a circle encompasses a part of the main platform. and once it disappears that platform is gone. but maybe about 30 seconds later it reappears.
I think that about covers everything I can add for now.
Ok, wow this is all a lot to take in and reply to. I defiantly agree that we should focus on one phase at time.
Ok, Phase 1: Lavos' Shell or Head,
I'm going to say this again, I don't think using the spawns as throwables is a good idea. As I already mentioned, in CT each Lavos Spawn was powerful enough on it's own to be a mini-boss and actually go the one of the three boss themes when you fought them. So having them as just casual enemies that you throw around wouldn't do them justice. However the other Lavos parts (that's what the sprite sheet called 'em) referring the the bits that appeared during Lavos imitations of previous bosses were basically puppets and would work perfectly.
Ok, I also support the back battle. Mostly this would be truer to the original game.
Also it means slightly less work.
Attacks:
-For the attack announcements I didn't think the the text announcements would be a problem and would be truer to the original game. Naturally we'd only use text announcements for the attacks that actually had text announcements in CT such as Destruction Rains from the Heavens, and Zone of Chaos (if we decide to use that one).
-Speaking of Zone of Chaos, one has to remember what the attack was originally intended to do. Well I looked it up, and the attack list I found referred to the attack as "Chaotic Zone" but Zone of Chaos, Chaotic Zone whatever, the fact is the effect listed said
Ok, Phase 1: Lavos' Shell or Head,
I'm going to say this again, I don't think using the spawns as throwables is a good idea. As I already mentioned, in CT each Lavos Spawn was powerful enough on it's own to be a mini-boss and actually go the one of the three boss themes when you fought them. So having them as just casual enemies that you throw around wouldn't do them justice. However the other Lavos parts (that's what the sprite sheet called 'em) referring the the bits that appeared during Lavos imitations of previous bosses were basically puppets and would work perfectly.
Ok, I also support the back battle. Mostly this would be truer to the original game.
Also it means slightly less work.
Attacks:
-For the attack announcements I didn't think the the text announcements would be a problem and would be truer to the original game. Naturally we'd only use text announcements for the attacks that actually had text announcements in CT such as Destruction Rains from the Heavens, and Zone of Chaos (if we decide to use that one).
-Speaking of Zone of Chaos, one has to remember what the attack was originally intended to do. Well I looked it up, and the attack list I found referred to the attack as "Chaotic Zone" but Zone of Chaos, Chaotic Zone whatever, the fact is the effect listed said
| QUOTE (rpgclassics.com) |
| Magic damage and confusion to all characters. |
So converting that to a platforming format; since many characters can't take much damage, eliminate the magic damage and just have it cause confusion, or as I mentioned before, inverse player controls for a few seconds.
-Moving on, for the Rain attack I'm in support of the reflex type. Mostly that makes it more of a challenge rather than having the player just hide under a platform.
That being the case, having the needle attack damage the platforms would be unnecessary. That's just my thoughts on the matter though.
Whew. That's all I've got for now, I'm beat. Although I would like to say I appreciate you guys rallying behind this idea. I'm really beginning to feel like we can really pull this off.
@nagiwazushi Wow thats exactly what I meant : )
@canadiansaiyan We sure can
*Yup skinned shyguys are a very easy way of getting a playable mouckup fast. Which is what we need to keep motivated. However if they are changed, I'd like to see what other things youd like I honestly wouldn't mind making lavos laravae the size of shyguys or King watingas Cockroaches at most (they have to be easy because lavos isn't going to be just waiting for your attack).
Here are some skin suggestions:
. Vid1 0:51
. Vid1 1:36
. and lavos larvae as candidates
The first two are used in many lavos incarnations. In any case, they should be made tiny maybe the size of shyguys or king watingas roaches. After all we are fighting lavos not his minions. So in this case maybe canadiansaiyan made a good point guess we should favor the others. However as strong as they where, you had to fight many in that mountain that made progress there rather slow (ahh good memmories)
These are my suggestions, if you have others please share though I think we could choose between them.
(my fav is the lavos larvae of course, however taking canadiansaiyan's considerations I'll go for the 1:36 in the vid)
*I agree with having lavos at the back. We can get the sprites and background, besides the first two battles are majestic so having lavos at the back is best. So I guess that one's settled.
*I never did think about stomping lavos. I don't think thats a bad idea at all, it might make more sence than throwing stuff at him. In this case it would make a lot of sense that enemies are making matters worse. So if we go down this road I certainly would like armadillo esque larvae (still I think we could make the part roll)...
Oh and the mockups were very much out. But I guess its time to start making something more descriptive...
*Down with the top platform! Maybe we could make the rain sparse yet fast so that it is really best to be sheltered but not really impossible (just retardedly hard) to dodge it. Not as hard as geninsis 30 watinga battle (awesome and JS is a terrific gamer) but still challenging.
*As for announcements, I think nagiwazushi's idea is great. We could use both, Lavos would flash and make a roaring fire belching sound and open his mouth to cast them, while displaying a sign at the top of the screen. This one seems settled too...
*Portable hole idea. Yup that is exactly what I had in mind, the missing floor has to come back (only the needle attack makes permanent damage to the scenario and that would be to the platforms needed to get to lavos). It shouldn't last long 10 secs is good but maybe just 5 would be ok after all the thing is not to be there when it happens.
. canadiansaiyan's argument is very solid again so maybe we could go for the other suggestion...
*One last thing, what do you guys think about having lavos throw a fire attack like in 1:22 in the second vid? That way when you try and stom himyou might have to forse him into shooting first to be on the safe side.
Think that would be it for the 1st phase for now...
So, in conclution:
*Lavos goes to the back(for this phase). This will make development faster too.
*No top platform, only two platforms at lavos sides.
*The rain attack is still very fast and furious but dodgeable by very seasoned gamers (makes it posible to use different strategies). The platforms shouldn't be that big so as to allow both a reflex and strategy based attack. of course if you let fireballs pass through the platforms, the chaos attack effects would make this very challenging.
*Since the chaos attack is a status altering attack, we need another attack from lavos so should lavos shoot from his mouth like in vid2 1:22 (from the trex battle)?
. Thankfully there is PLENTY to choose from, just please show where it ocurrs its kinda hard to remember the attacks from all the other bosses when lavos uses them.
Maybe its time to start gathering sprites, like:
. lavos,
. his background
. his mouth (animated)
. A platform from the Chrono series universe...
And yup I can start to feel lavos ocming to life in MKF : )
@canadiansaiyan We sure can
*Yup skinned shyguys are a very easy way of getting a playable mouckup fast. Which is what we need to keep motivated. However if they are changed, I'd like to see what other things youd like I honestly wouldn't mind making lavos laravae the size of shyguys or King watingas Cockroaches at most (they have to be easy because lavos isn't going to be just waiting for your attack).
Here are some skin suggestions:
. Vid1 0:51
. Vid1 1:36
. and lavos larvae as candidates
The first two are used in many lavos incarnations. In any case, they should be made tiny maybe the size of shyguys or king watingas roaches. After all we are fighting lavos not his minions. So in this case maybe canadiansaiyan made a good point guess we should favor the others. However as strong as they where, you had to fight many in that mountain that made progress there rather slow (ahh good memmories)
These are my suggestions, if you have others please share though I think we could choose between them.
(my fav is the lavos larvae of course, however taking canadiansaiyan's considerations I'll go for the 1:36 in the vid)
*I agree with having lavos at the back. We can get the sprites and background, besides the first two battles are majestic so having lavos at the back is best. So I guess that one's settled.
*I never did think about stomping lavos. I don't think thats a bad idea at all, it might make more sence than throwing stuff at him. In this case it would make a lot of sense that enemies are making matters worse. So if we go down this road I certainly would like armadillo esque larvae (still I think we could make the part roll)...
Oh and the mockups were very much out. But I guess its time to start making something more descriptive...
*Down with the top platform!
Maybe we could make the rain sparse yet fast so that it is really best to be sheltered but not really impossible (just retardedly hard) to dodge it. Not as hard as geninsis 30 watinga battle (awesome and JS is a terrific gamer) but still challenging.*As for announcements, I think nagiwazushi's idea is great. We could use both, Lavos would flash and make a roaring fire belching sound and open his mouth to cast them, while displaying a sign at the top of the screen. This one seems settled too...
*Portable hole idea. Yup that is exactly what I had in mind, the missing floor has to come back (only the needle attack makes permanent damage to the scenario and that would be to the platforms needed to get to lavos). It shouldn't last long 10 secs is good but maybe just 5 would be ok after all the thing is not to be there when it happens.
. canadiansaiyan's argument is very solid again so maybe we could go for the other suggestion...
*One last thing, what do you guys think about having lavos throw a fire attack like in 1:22 in the second vid? That way when you try and stom himyou might have to forse him into shooting first to be on the safe side.
Think that would be it for the 1st phase for now...
So, in conclution:
*Lavos goes to the back(for this phase). This will make development faster too.
*No top platform, only two platforms at lavos sides.
*The rain attack is still very fast and furious but dodgeable by very seasoned gamers (makes it posible to use different strategies). The platforms shouldn't be that big so as to allow both a reflex and strategy based attack. of course if you let fireballs pass through the platforms, the chaos attack effects would make this very challenging.
*Since the chaos attack is a status altering attack, we need another attack from lavos so should lavos shoot from his mouth like in vid2 1:22 (from the trex battle)?
. Thankfully there is PLENTY to choose from, just please show where it ocurrs its kinda hard to remember the attacks from all the other bosses when lavos uses them.
Maybe its time to start gathering sprites, like:
. lavos,
. his background
. his mouth (animated)
. A platform from the Chrono series universe...
And yup I can start to feel lavos ocming to life in MKF : )
QUOTE (canadiansaiyan @ Apr 7 2009, 04:00 PM)
-Speaking of Zone of Chaos, one has to remember what the attack was originally intended to do. Well I looked it up, and the attack list I found referred to the attack as "Chaotic Zone" but Zone of Chaos, Chaotic Zone whatever, the fact is the effect listed said
| QUOTE (rpgclassics.com) |
| Magic damage and confusion to all characters. |
So converting that to a platforming format; since many characters can't take much damage, eliminate the magic damage and just have it cause confusion, or as I mentioned before, inverse player controls for a few seconds.
Do you like the choice 2 proposal for the rain attack (covering the whole screen and stuff)?
Sorry to bump, but my post was too big and just wanted to make a simple question...
PS Yeah! my first comment square wohoo...
EDIT: Just thought of something. Well removing an a attack from lavos would make him weak but this is mostly a status changing attack so...
What if instead of a hole we just make it so that it damages you if you fall in but in any case it still changes your controls temporarily of course?
It would work similar to the diagram for the whole opening before your feet but instead of dissapearing it would make the screen flash and then the controls should be reversed! What do you think guys?
Oh and for background music, I think its pretty obvious. However if there is a remixed version we could consider it too...
Ok, haven't been online much the last few days; need to catch up. Let's see where were we?
So it's basically decided that we're going with Lavos at the back, since we all seem to agree that style is preferable.
I personally think that Lavos could be both stompable and vulnerable to thrown objects. That way giving the player options as to how they want to attack Lavos. However to prevent stomp spamming, after being stomped Lavos should become invulnerable for a few seconds, kinda like King Watinga, so the player would be forced to move around before attempting another attack.
On the Lavos' attacks. Yes, proposal choice 2 for the rain attack is, I think, the best option.
Your ideas for the Zone of Chaos attack are not bad cacho, but the fact is that attack doesn't involve any sort of hole despite what the in game effects show. The desc. on that rpgclassics website described it as a false electrical field designed to cause confusion. The "hole" could just be use to represent the attacks area of effect, so if you stay out of it, you remain uneffected, but if you get caught in it, it reverses your controls temporarily; that's what I think we should do. It's still open for discussion though so feel free to add your input.
Well that's all I've got for now. Everything else seems pretty much settled. I look foward to seeing how this finally turns out.
So it's basically decided that we're going with Lavos at the back, since we all seem to agree that style is preferable.
I personally think that Lavos could be both stompable and vulnerable to thrown objects. That way giving the player options as to how they want to attack Lavos. However to prevent stomp spamming, after being stomped Lavos should become invulnerable for a few seconds, kinda like King Watinga, so the player would be forced to move around before attempting another attack.
On the Lavos' attacks. Yes, proposal choice 2 for the rain attack is, I think, the best option.
Your ideas for the Zone of Chaos attack are not bad cacho, but the fact is that attack doesn't involve any sort of hole despite what the in game effects show. The desc. on that rpgclassics website described it as a false electrical field designed to cause confusion. The "hole" could just be use to represent the attacks area of effect, so if you stay out of it, you remain uneffected, but if you get caught in it, it reverses your controls temporarily; that's what I think we should do. It's still open for discussion though so feel free to add your input.
Well that's all I've got for now. Everything else seems pretty much settled. I look foward to seeing how this finally turns out.
I haven't been on much either so don't feel bad. I've actually been playing through CT to take some snapshots of specific areas to use as part of the backgrounds or tiling. (for example, the bit of terrain before fighting lavos through the day of lavos jar).
For the background I honestly don't like the water backdrop for the actual stage so I was going to try and whip something together to use as a background like a burning city or something like that.
I am trying to speed through the game so I can collect tiles for the outer core and see if I can find anything that might work for the inner (honestly tiles from the ocean palace or the black omen might look good there). For the 3rd stage though I'm unsure of how the background will look especially since it was mentioned earlier that they wanted the feel of traveling through time like in the videos. That'll be visited though when that problem arises.
I also haven't downloaded the sprites yet to see if anything could be done with them, although just from looking it looks like the sprites might need to be resized a little and for the 1st stage lavos specifically, I don't know how distorted the image 'may' get. Again once I get to that I'll take a look.
For the background I honestly don't like the water backdrop for the actual stage so I was going to try and whip something together to use as a background like a burning city or something like that.
I am trying to speed through the game so I can collect tiles for the outer core and see if I can find anything that might work for the inner (honestly tiles from the ocean palace or the black omen might look good there). For the 3rd stage though I'm unsure of how the background will look especially since it was mentioned earlier that they wanted the feel of traveling through time like in the videos. That'll be visited though when that problem arises.
I also haven't downloaded the sprites yet to see if anything could be done with them, although just from looking it looks like the sprites might need to be resized a little and for the 1st stage lavos specifically, I don't know how distorted the image 'may' get. Again once I get to that I'll take a look.
[QUOTE]Hi guys! Well hope you guy are having a good time these vacations, nothing like a spring to get you in a better mood eh? Anyway, you know me so here is another one of those "short ones" hehe...
LAVOS SETUP
[QUOTE]So it's basically decided that we're going with Lavos at the back, since we all seem to agree that style is preferable.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more : )
So that part is closed woohooo
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ATTACKING LAVOS
[QUOTE]I personally think that Lavos could be both stompable and vulnerable to thrown objects. That way giving the player options as to how they want to attack Lavos. [/QUOTE]
Ok I agree, he certainly should be both stompable and attacked by throwable objects. However, as for...
[QUOTE]However to prevent stomp spamming, after being stomped Lavos should become invulnerable for a few seconds, kinda like King Watinga, so the player would be forced to move around before attempting another attack.[/QUOTE]
I have another suggestion, we could force players into getting near lavos before attacking (no cheap deaths) by:
* Making the player bounce heavily after an impact,
* And if you guys dig the platform approach (already needed for stomping), make it so that if you throw something at the shell (which happens if you throw something upward, like the watinga case) lavos will counter attack with the needle attack.
However since this isn't a larvae the player would be penalized with a heavy attack of 4 or 5 needles. That way the player better not try and do this or he might be risking even more than by climbing on to the platforms and throwing it directly at his head (which once again opens another door to a challenge, because dodging these needles would be very difficult but not impossible).
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LAVOS ATTACKS
[QUOTE]On the Lavos' attacks. Yes, proposal choice 2 for the rain attack is, I think, the best option.[/QUOTE]
In this case, I have a suggestion...
Circular movement platforms. It might be too much so what do you think?
[QUOTE]Your ideas for the Zone of Chaos attack are not bad cacho, but the fact is that attack doesn't involve any sort of hole despite what the in game effects show. The desc. on that rpgclassics website described it as a false electrical field designed to cause confusion. The "hole" could just be use to represent the attacks area of effect, so if you stay out of it, you remain uneffected, but if you get caught in it, it reverses your controls temporarily; that's what I think we should do. It's still open for discussion though so feel free to add your input.[/QUOTE]
Chaos attack2 isn't a propper attack (my first proposition, chaos attack 1, was), I was just pointing out that a circle could enclose the whole screen since now the player and lavos are in the same plain and once it was done the controls were reversed. So I'm just basically proposing a way of animating such an attack.
I also think it should be a transparency (fog-like) type of effect so that the action doesn't have to freeze (though freezing it might make it even stranger).
Oh and also, if every time it occurrs it reversed your controls and the effect didn't wear out, it could make you switch between reversed and normal controls and could be pretty strange. Just saying this could be considered...
As for the rain from the heavens and needle attacks, I think modified vertical bulletbills will do the trick...
Rain from the heavens
* They would be faster
* They would appear at random parts of the screen
* It would shoot around 2 or 3 attacks simultaniously
* They would have to be a bit narrower and sprited accordingly
Needle attacks and counter
* They would have to appear where the character is expected to be (no where he actually is).
* A single needle for a normal attack, multiple needles for counter attacks
* Sprited accordingly
***************************************************************
LAVOS PARTS
I take it you guys would like both of them.
[QUOTE]I don't mind using skinned shyguys in place for a prototype, but if we move beyond that (i.e. this actually gets support to be made into an actual stage) it should either be lavos parts or spawns. Otherwise it just would seem out of place.[\QUOTE]
I thought the behaviour of a shyguy is appropiate, but maybe yeah if lavos has only two damaging attacks these spawn could help lavos out.
Anything that resembles an existing enemy would simplify things considerably. Up until now I have only made a slower goomba and two different types of spikes (also did some hammer bros and boomerang bros but they were just resprited, their behaviour was the same)
Anyway this is probably the least of our priorities but still shouldn't be neglected.
******************************************************************
SCENERY
[QUOTE]I haven't been on much either so don't feel bad. I've actually been playing through CT to take some snapshots of specific areas to use as part of the backgrounds or tiling. (for example, the bit of terrain before fighting lavos through the day of lavos jar).[/QUOTE]
Great! Strangely enough I haven't seen any tiles from the game...
[QUOTE]For the background I honestly don't like the water backdrop for the actual stage so I was going to try and whip something together to use as a background like a burning city or something like that.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm too bad I actually like that background, though I understand the idea of wanting to show something else there is just too much that is great in this game.
Still I have a small suggestion that sort of feeds of the pocket dimention idea. Make a small (2 screen wide more or less) part where you enter the crater where lavos is. In this short part of the stage we give powerups (because this is a hard boss fight), and a little atmosphere with the propper music (there is a very eery reppetitive tune in Chrono trigger that I think also appears on FFVI (or FFIII in America). Anyway at the end of this short tunnel there's a warp spot that gets you into Lavos's pocket dimention.
As I said this should be about two or maybe two and a half screens wide with some gophers and maybe a buzzybettle or two, and would serve to set the mood and give very needed powerups to the players. I already had made a design but game maker bailed out on me (been having a lot of problems, I save the game and then it crashes when I try to build so I close it but then can't open the game again).
****************************************
So far:
* Lavos is at the back
* The rain attack goes through the platforms and is reflex oriented
*
* In order to prevent cheap deaths, which do you prefer?
- A countering shell and bouncing
- Temporary invincibility
* Would you like zone of chaos to be animated as I stated in Chaos attack 2 ?
(again this is only a control reversing attack, no damage)
* So zone of Chaos reverses controls right? then sould it...
- Be temporary?
- Alternate between normal and reversed controls ?
(until lavos phase one is killed)
* Should there be an entry zone with power ups?
* Any suggestions on the parts behaviour?
LAVOS SETUP
[QUOTE]So it's basically decided that we're going with Lavos at the back, since we all seem to agree that style is preferable.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more : )
So that part is closed woohooo
************************************************************
ATTACKING LAVOS
[QUOTE]I personally think that Lavos could be both stompable and vulnerable to thrown objects. That way giving the player options as to how they want to attack Lavos. [/QUOTE]
Ok I agree, he certainly should be both stompable and attacked by throwable objects. However, as for...
[QUOTE]However to prevent stomp spamming, after being stomped Lavos should become invulnerable for a few seconds, kinda like King Watinga, so the player would be forced to move around before attempting another attack.[/QUOTE]
I have another suggestion, we could force players into getting near lavos before attacking (no cheap deaths) by:
* Making the player bounce heavily after an impact,
* And if you guys dig the platform approach (already needed for stomping), make it so that if you throw something at the shell (which happens if you throw something upward, like the watinga case) lavos will counter attack with the needle attack.
However since this isn't a larvae the player would be penalized with a heavy attack of 4 or 5 needles. That way the player better not try and do this or he might be risking even more than by climbing on to the platforms and throwing it directly at his head (which once again opens another door to a challenge, because dodging these needles would be very difficult but not impossible).
***********************************************************
LAVOS ATTACKS
[QUOTE]On the Lavos' attacks. Yes, proposal choice 2 for the rain attack is, I think, the best option.[/QUOTE]
In this case, I have a suggestion...
Circular movement platforms. It might be too much so what do you think?
[QUOTE]Your ideas for the Zone of Chaos attack are not bad cacho, but the fact is that attack doesn't involve any sort of hole despite what the in game effects show. The desc. on that rpgclassics website described it as a false electrical field designed to cause confusion. The "hole" could just be use to represent the attacks area of effect, so if you stay out of it, you remain uneffected, but if you get caught in it, it reverses your controls temporarily; that's what I think we should do. It's still open for discussion though so feel free to add your input.[/QUOTE]
Chaos attack2 isn't a propper attack (my first proposition, chaos attack 1, was), I was just pointing out that a circle could enclose the whole screen since now the player and lavos are in the same plain and once it was done the controls were reversed. So I'm just basically proposing a way of animating such an attack.
I also think it should be a transparency (fog-like) type of effect so that the action doesn't have to freeze (though freezing it might make it even stranger).
Oh and also, if every time it occurrs it reversed your controls and the effect didn't wear out, it could make you switch between reversed and normal controls and could be pretty strange. Just saying this could be considered...
As for the rain from the heavens and needle attacks, I think modified vertical bulletbills will do the trick...
Rain from the heavens
* They would be faster
* They would appear at random parts of the screen
* It would shoot around 2 or 3 attacks simultaniously
* They would have to be a bit narrower and sprited accordingly
Needle attacks and counter
* They would have to appear where the character is expected to be (no where he actually is).
* A single needle for a normal attack, multiple needles for counter attacks
* Sprited accordingly
***************************************************************
LAVOS PARTS
I take it you guys would like both of them.
[QUOTE]I don't mind using skinned shyguys in place for a prototype, but if we move beyond that (i.e. this actually gets support to be made into an actual stage) it should either be lavos parts or spawns. Otherwise it just would seem out of place.[\QUOTE]
I thought the behaviour of a shyguy is appropiate, but maybe yeah if lavos has only two damaging attacks these spawn could help lavos out.
Anything that resembles an existing enemy would simplify things considerably. Up until now I have only made a slower goomba and two different types of spikes (also did some hammer bros and boomerang bros but they were just resprited, their behaviour was the same)
Anyway this is probably the least of our priorities but still shouldn't be neglected.
******************************************************************
SCENERY
[QUOTE]I haven't been on much either so don't feel bad. I've actually been playing through CT to take some snapshots of specific areas to use as part of the backgrounds or tiling. (for example, the bit of terrain before fighting lavos through the day of lavos jar).[/QUOTE]
Great! Strangely enough I haven't seen any tiles from the game...
[QUOTE]For the background I honestly don't like the water backdrop for the actual stage so I was going to try and whip something together to use as a background like a burning city or something like that.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm too bad I actually like that background, though I understand the idea of wanting to show something else there is just too much that is great in this game.
Still I have a small suggestion that sort of feeds of the pocket dimention idea. Make a small (2 screen wide more or less) part where you enter the crater where lavos is. In this short part of the stage we give powerups (because this is a hard boss fight), and a little atmosphere with the propper music (there is a very eery reppetitive tune in Chrono trigger that I think also appears on FFVI (or FFIII in America). Anyway at the end of this short tunnel there's a warp spot that gets you into Lavos's pocket dimention.
As I said this should be about two or maybe two and a half screens wide with some gophers and maybe a buzzybettle or two, and would serve to set the mood and give very needed powerups to the players. I already had made a design but game maker bailed out on me (been having a lot of problems, I save the game and then it crashes when I try to build so I close it but then can't open the game again).
****************************************
So far:
* Lavos is at the back
* The rain attack goes through the platforms and is reflex oriented
*
* In order to prevent cheap deaths, which do you prefer?
- A countering shell and bouncing
- Temporary invincibility
* Would you like zone of chaos to be animated as I stated in Chaos attack 2 ?
(again this is only a control reversing attack, no damage)
* So zone of Chaos reverses controls right? then sould it...
- Be temporary?
- Alternate between normal and reversed controls ?
(until lavos phase one is killed)
* Should there be an entry zone with power ups?
* Any suggestions on the parts behaviour?
Ok where to begin...
The setup for the first phase is officially decided, that's good, check that off on the 'To Do' list.
Attacking Lavos:
I was under the (wrong) impression that Genisi's Robotnick had too much bounce after stomping and it would send you too far to stomp it again, but was wrong (still for some different levels of bounce, you can check this is the thread Gensi's WIP thread look at Robotnicks progress the bounce is changed from vid to vid)
Back to the main issue. I was thinking, there is that or maybe after being stomped lavos could counter by shooting fire (like the TRex).
The shell is only background as far as the player is concerned. Its just that there are ways of knowing if it has been hit (collition rectangles).
Basically I'm just trying to prevent cheap kills on lavos. You could easily get away with shooting lavos from below (say with Arthur) making this whole phase very easy (even if he is temporarily invincible after being hit). I don't really like that much, but maybe if the Lavo's parts are agressive enough though I somehow would like Lavos to be self sufficient somehow.
Anyway thats my opinion...
I understand where you're coming from, however bear in mind Lavos is going to be throwing attacks around at the same time making it difficult for you (the player) to just stand there and assault him. Plus we could make the Lavos parts harmful like the shyguys, like you're safe to jump on top of them, but hit any other part of 'em and you take damage.
About stomp spamming healing Lavos, it's an interesting idea and would certainly discourage anyone from stomp spamming, but wouldn't that be a little complicated? esp. from a programming perspective? Besides, I think the prospect of becoming a Lavos snack would be discouragement enough. Esp, if we made it that if you try and spam stomp Lavos and end up falling through him and getting chomped, it's instant death.
The setup for the first phase is officially decided, that's good, check that off on the 'To Do' list.
Attacking Lavos:
QUOTE (cacho29)
* Making the player bounce heavily after an impact,
Ok, you're going to have to elaborate a little more on what you mean by this.
My thought was that we'd try and encourage the play to, if stomping Lavos, to go up and stomp and then continue from the stomp over to the platform again.
Kinda like: _ _
--->/ \{stomp}/ \--->
That's a very crude representation, but you get the idea. To achieve this, I thought we'd have Lavos' head become intangible/invincible for a few seconds after being stomped, just long enough so if the player tried stomp spamming, they's come back down for the second stomp and fall through Lavos, but Lavos would become tangible again 1/2 way through the fall essentially chomping the player. So obviously that cause damage.
Ok, I thought the shell would be pretty much part of the background. Obviously it would be part of his body, but not have any impact on the fight. Other then to maybe launch attacks from, like we could show attacks being launched from the shell, but I mean the shell would be unaffected by the player. That was my thinking anyway. IDK, I think that might make things awfully awkward and it wouldn't make much sense that throwable objects could hit the shell but you can't stomp the shell (not that you'd want to).
Lavos Attacks:
We never discussed platform movement, do we want the platforms to move or do we want them stationary?
For Chaos Zone and the reversed controls I thought the reversed controls effect would only last about 5-10 seconds. Long enough to mess up the player, but not long enough to break the battle. After that the controls would return to normal, that is until Lavos performed the attack again.
There's a sprite sheet on The Spriter's Resource that has all of Lavos' attack effects inc. Destruction Rains from the Heavens. unfortunately it doesn't inc. Chaos Zone, probably because that attack wasn't exclusive to Lavos. Anyway here's the link:
http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/chro...gger/sheet/3609
Ok, you're going to have to elaborate a little more on what you mean by this.
My thought was that we'd try and encourage the play to, if stomping Lavos, to go up and stomp and then continue from the stomp over to the platform again.
Kinda like: _ _
--->/ \{stomp}/ \--->
That's a very crude representation, but you get the idea. To achieve this, I thought we'd have Lavos' head become intangible/invincible for a few seconds after being stomped, just long enough so if the player tried stomp spamming, they's come back down for the second stomp and fall through Lavos, but Lavos would become tangible again 1/2 way through the fall essentially chomping the player. So obviously that cause damage.
| QUOTE (cacho29) |
| * And if you guys dig the platform approach (already needed for stomping), make it so that if you throw something at the shell (which happens if you throw something upward, like the watinga case) lavos will counter attack with the needle attack. |
Ok, I thought the shell would be pretty much part of the background. Obviously it would be part of his body, but not have any impact on the fight. Other then to maybe launch attacks from, like we could show attacks being launched from the shell, but I mean the shell would be unaffected by the player. That was my thinking anyway. IDK, I think that might make things awfully awkward and it wouldn't make much sense that throwable objects could hit the shell but you can't stomp the shell (not that you'd want to).Lavos Attacks:
We never discussed platform movement, do we want the platforms to move or do we want them stationary?
For Chaos Zone and the reversed controls I thought the reversed controls effect would only last about 5-10 seconds. Long enough to mess up the player, but not long enough to break the battle. After that the controls would return to normal, that is until Lavos performed the attack again.
There's a sprite sheet on The Spriter's Resource that has all of Lavos' attack effects inc. Destruction Rains from the Heavens. unfortunately it doesn't inc. Chaos Zone, probably because that attack wasn't exclusive to Lavos. Anyway here's the link:
http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/chro...gger/sheet/3609
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE (cacho29) * Making the player bounce heavily after an impact, Ok, you're going to have to elaborate a little more on what you mean by this. |
I was under the (wrong) impression that Genisi's Robotnick had too much bounce after stomping and it would send you too far to stomp it again, but was wrong (still for some different levels of bounce, you can check this is the thread Gensi's WIP thread look at Robotnicks progress the bounce is changed from vid to vid)
Back to the main issue. I was thinking, there is that or maybe after being stomped lavos could counter by shooting fire (like the TRex).
| QUOTE |
| My thought was that we'd try and encourage the play to, if stomping Lavos, to go up and stomp and then continue from the stomp over to the platform again. |
The shell is only background as far as the player is concerned. Its just that there are ways of knowing if it has been hit (collition rectangles).
Basically I'm just trying to prevent cheap kills on lavos. You could easily get away with shooting lavos from below (say with Arthur) making this whole phase very easy (even if he is temporarily invincible after being hit). I don't really like that much, but maybe if the Lavo's parts are agressive enough though I somehow would like Lavos to be self sufficient somehow.
Anyway thats my opinion...
going along the lines of invincibility, maybe have it so if the player tries to stomp in quick succession instead of invincibility it actually heals lavos. I'm pretty sure there is a way to tie that into the CT story like say the stomping allows lavos to harvest enough dna or something that allows him to heal himself. then if the player continues to bounce he can shoot fire or something that not only hurts the player but also hurls them to one of the sides of the stage. almost like if the player hit a spring or something in a sonic level. especially if some of the platforms are missing this could possibly have the potential to make the player fall into a hole or something but maybe not. Either way the player would not want to do that again.
Sorry for the slow replies. school has been busy as all hell and I haven't been around nearly as much this last week. next week will be similar
Sorry for the slow replies. school has been busy as all hell and I haven't been around nearly as much this last week. next week will be similar
| QUOTE (cacho29) |
| Basically I'm just trying to prevent cheap kills on lavos. You could easily get away with shooting lavos from below (say with Arthur) making this whole phase very easy (even if he is temporarily invincible after being hit). I don't really like that much, but maybe if the Lavo's parts are agressive enough though I somehow would like Lavos to be self sufficient somehow. |
I understand where you're coming from, however bear in mind Lavos is going to be throwing attacks around at the same time making it difficult for you (the player) to just stand there and assault him. Plus we could make the Lavos parts harmful like the shyguys, like you're safe to jump on top of them, but hit any other part of 'em and you take damage.
About stomp spamming healing Lavos, it's an interesting idea and would certainly discourage anyone from stomp spamming, but wouldn't that be a little complicated? esp. from a programming perspective? Besides, I think the prospect of becoming a Lavos snack would be discouragement enough. Esp, if we made it that if you try and spam stomp Lavos and end up falling through him and getting chomped, it's instant death.
I'm not a programmer but I think it really shouldn't be that complicated. feel free to actually try and verify this but I think it would look something like this...
>Lavos is attacking mario normally
>If the player hits lavos' head from the top, then run a small flashing animation and start an invisible timer that runs the duration of that short animation
>if the player hits lavos' head while this timer is running, add this specified amount to lavos' health and activate this special attack.
>When the timer reaches zero, resume the normal game loop.
All the people on this forum with experience in programming will be laughing their asses off but I think it'd be something like that. again feel free to verify that and prove me wrong if need be
>Lavos is attacking mario normally
>If the player hits lavos' head from the top, then run a small flashing animation and start an invisible timer that runs the duration of that short animation
>if the player hits lavos' head while this timer is running, add this specified amount to lavos' health and activate this special attack.
>When the timer reaches zero, resume the normal game loop.
All the people on this forum with experience in programming will be laughing their asses off but I think it'd be something like that. again feel free to verify that and prove me wrong if need be
Hmmmm, I was waiting to hear from cacho29 before responding again, but it's been several days now so I might as well say something.
@nagiwazushi: Well I have no programming experience either so I can't really say for sure. I'm just thinking we should keep it simple, besides my way defiantly ensures no one will be stomp spamming. *evil grin*
@nagiwazushi: Well I have no programming experience either so I can't really say for sure. I'm just thinking we should keep it simple, besides my way defiantly ensures no one will be stomp spamming. *evil grin*